Science Chats Forum

Well I'm not sure where else we can go from here. I guess we'll have to agree to dissagree on the definition of faith. That's just not how it is defined in Christian circles. You keep killing the straw man you're setting up, which keeps us from having a meaningfull conversation about creationism.

I'm not willing to do research on statements you yourself can't defend. It's easy to cut and paste websites by people who look smart. Let's look at your comments again:

"The authors of the Bible thought the planet was flat."
A lot of metaphorical language is used in our experience and in the Bible. I can think of three descriptions of the earth in the Bible off hand:
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REV 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle.
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JOB 38:13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
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ISA 40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
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Each of these passages are using literary devices. We are not meant to take them literally. Let me prove my point:

-In the case of revelation, the book is full of fantastic imagry. It would be inconsistent to think that the author all of a sudden switches out of fantastic description mode to technically accurate mode to communicate that the world has literally four corners. I don't know if the apostle John knew the world was round, but this certainly isn't the case he was trying to make here.
-In the case of Job, do you really think the author is trying to communicate someone actually shaking the earth so that wicked people will fall off? Could he be trying to communicate something else with this language?
-In the Case of Isaiah, the next verses talk about people being planted in the ground. Do you think the author was trying to communicate that people literally are plants?

Let's use a little common sense when looking at the text of the Bible. There are lots of places where it describes real things, and lots of places where other literary devices are used. If you've ever taken English in High School, you should be able to figure out when each is taking place (please don't point out that the Bible wasn't written in English, all languages use literary devices to communicate information). When describing the earth in a real way the Bible never says whether it is round or flat.

"They couldn't even predict the weather."
LK 12:54 He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, `It's going to rain,' and it does. 55 And when the south wind blows, you say, `It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?

"They had no idea there were other continents even."
-They did not have world maps, but they knew where what we call Africa was:
AC 8:27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopiann eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians.

"Plenty of detail about how to shave your female captive and sell her while buying some children slaves at the market, and how to beat them with a rod"
-This simply isn't in the Bible.
-The concept of slave is in the Bible. But slaves had the same basic rights as others and no one was slave for life, unless they wanted to be, or unless they were a woman, but said woman had to be given the rights of a wife in that case (becoming like a free woman). For sure it was a different world back then, but justice and law existed for the Israelite. Jesus ushered in a new Kingdom, so that now it's adherants live temporaly in earths kingdoms while retaining citizenship in the Kingdom of Heaven. Slavery under Jewish law was quite different than what our ancestors did to people just because they were different than us (or whatever other reason).

Certainly we have more technology today and access to more information about the world, space, microscopic things, but none of this makes the Bible any less true; even the miraculous parts. The authors didn't know everything, but if eye witness accounts say it happenned, and reasonable inquiry says they were being honest about what they saw and heard, why would we not entertain the idea that it's true? Not looking into this becomes no longer an issue of evidence, it is a decision to ignore possibilities. That is just not good science in my opinion.

Thanks for your opinions.

Wow, so many problems with what you wrote, I don't even know where to start. You seem to be making a lot of excuses. The slavery thing alone I could have a field day with.

What can I say. The Old Testament is automatically disqualified as being the word of God just on the "kill the non-believer" items it asserts. No clear-thinking modern adult free from serious emotional needs would think God issued orders or condoned butchering people for just not believing the same religion, even if it was your own family or children. All these religions with "kill the non-believer" are BS. Let's stop pretending otherwise and kidding ourselves.

My favorite was your excuse-making and attempt to soften slavery. Kids were purchased and never to see their families again. The notion that God would issue beating guidelines for people as if they are property is absurd. Yet, that is what we find in the Bible.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Gee, thanks God. You can mutilate and beat your human property to death, as long as the slave takes a few days to die.

You want to turn the Bible into some sort of divine work that can tell us about the origin of humans. "Creationism" is not defensible, which is the topic. It's one particular set of views from a particular set of people written back when stoning someone for being gay, cursing, or a fortune teller was AOK.

Yet, people still want it to be taught or explored in a SCIENCE class due to their emotional needs to have their subjective delusions or feelings be acknowledged or respected.

Please, keep the fantasy to yourself. We don't need to muddy the sciences and teach kids this nonsense. Any club that is or was AOK with beating people as property or killing others just for not believing is in the realm of archaic nonsense. Stop pretending it isn't or trying romanticize it.

You asked some questions. You asked:

I hope you are not one of those people who want to pretend that the Earth is only 7000 years old or whatever and dinosaurs were not around hundreds of millions of years ago. Some religious fanatics even try to pretend dinosaurs were on the Ark. I put that right up there with slugs that teleported from other continents to get the Ark. You don't have to worry about stuff like that when you are an archaic dude writing the Bible, though. No one else knows about extinct species, evolution, or other continents and the absurdity of suggesting all current species on Earth were once in an Ark. That's the kind of muddying we should keep away from the kids.

YES, the 7 day thing not too long ago it is unscientific. There is a tremendous amount of scientific evidence in overlapping fields of study that demonstrate the Earth was formed LONG ago, not pretty recently.


No, for obvious reasons. It's not a science, it's a feeling or faith.

No, there is evidence people believe in flying lesbian tomato monsters that create planets by vomiting them out. We don't need to study evidence of this by looking at an old book that claims such a monster spit out planets.



Yes, teach a religion in a class for that so that parents and people who want to indulge themselves in archaic absurdity and emotional pacification can go where it is safe and sound from real science.


It's offensive to suggest kids should learn this junk as science. Hopefully you would not work to promote it in public schools where our tax dollars would fund the muddying and superstitious origins of your ideas and views.

__________________
MOCK - heh heh

There is a response to your statements about the Old Testament to clear up your misunderstandings (and misinformation: some of your statements are still completely false). The slavery thing makes sense once you separate your self from anachronism. It is more like becoming a contracted servant. Women were made servants for life because back then it was very difficult for women to support themselves without a man; just the way their society worked. It was actually for their protection that they were made servants for life (there is even more to this I think, but that's the best I can do in a short summation). The punishment for killing a slave was death, if I remember correctly. For knocking out tooth, it was a tooth, an eye for an eye. The passage you quoted is probably better translated: "if the slave gets up after a day or two" (NIV), and should take into consideration the rest of the law, just like we do with law codes today.
For the rest of your statements (some of which were completely false, I won't address those). Consider the possibility that God exists and sets up a law for people he reveals Himself to. The just result for rejection of said law is death. If God exists and is going to send people to Hell for rejecting Him, it makes sense that people would die for rejecting him when His glory is among them in the cloud and fire, or in the tabernacle and Temple.
You should know that the law was for the people God revealed Himself to, the Israelites. They were commanded to put entire peoples to death only in one geographical location. It was the equivilant to dropping an atomic bomb on the area. They were not sent out to dominate the world. The people they drove out sacrificed babies and committed pracitces that went against all things good and moral. If God is God then He is just in passing judgment on them (according to His standard, not arbitrarily).
I realize that these are some tough things to try and figure out, and it is good to question them. I did so myself. But after looking into it a bit and using a little common sense it shows them for what they are. The problem is when people just look at them on the surface.

Back to Creation.
I'm not one of those 7000 year young earthers, but I am open to possibilities.
Thanks for the rest of your opinions. I think I'll just say that I disagree, based on the common evidence available. It seems we've come to the end of what can be said about this. You should consider that not everyone believes what you believe. And that not everyone who disagrees with you is unreasonable or unthinking. There are plenty of scientists who use the creationist model. If you would like to look into them, you can find some lists on some of the creationist websites like answersingenesis.org.

Thanks for the discussion

I'd like to exit this thread with a few verses to show how absurd it is to suggest this stuff is divine in origin, despite the excuses and attempt to minimize or soften it.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Humans as property - kids bought for permanent servitude like cattle. Beating and violence - you can beat your slaves, it's OK. They have to be good little slaves like God wants, after all.

What BS!




Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1)If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)




Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)





Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)



2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)




Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)


Helloooooooooo, this is not a loving God and it is not divine!

The notion of taking the authors of this crap as having insight into the start of the human race is absurd, but to each his own, I guess. Just keep it away from my kids and legitimate science classes.

__________________
MOCK - heh heh

Wolverine. Such a one side hit....Good .... But entirely Biased.......

I both dissagreee with the concept of creator....ans see a role for a creation force...(all the rest is cream filling)....

To say that intelligence was in the form of a being who met out the injustices you have quoted would be quite wrong............To see an evoloutionary society driven by a sense of Law is quite sound to my thinking....There are enough examples of cruelty which did not "write" thier laws for prosperity....

But one thing is clear to me of society when I look at it's history. Justice was important in whatever form it took...The theory that retrobution would follow transgression is embedded in our modern , scientific mind as well.....So it's hard to hammer the aincients for thier fumbling attempts at justice....

Do I believe in a methodology which eventually DOES have a higher justice....Yes I do. But not as a religious concept,rather , I see that laws do exist which have implications. They are less obvious than the ones you quoted , but none the less , they are just as harsh..........."do not fear when war and fathom come for these things must happen. They are the signs of the birthpains. Evoloution is hell on the evolving. Each action that you make is balanced against a universal average, The average must always remain constant, so a rekoning must be forthcoming..."the sins of the father will be visited on the son to the seventieth generastion"...

From where I sit Man has decided that they are the tool of this retrobution. If not themselves , then "karma" and a wide range of calamatous forces....But for me i'm rather interested if the dna genome changes over time and the words are meant for a rather more suptle approach which uses natural balancing rather than judgement.....

What you've quotes is Man's justice being attributed to God....I would be hartily dissapointed if we could box it up so easily and corrupt justice so often. NO, an entity that was God would not seek retrobution , but balance and must keep that balance at any cost despite evolution floundering, that is exactly what happened...

Cheers
Iseason

Of course I am biased, just like you. We are all biased. All I can say is that no LOVING GOD I can imagine or was born to accept would, instead of doing things to expedite or end slavery and unnecessary killing of your loved ones, encourages it. It's just not believable.

__________________
MOCK - heh heh

I agree...but what if LAW is in play...in the same way cause and effect are in play...But forget the "Written Law"...Try just cause and effect...
We see the world in a time line fashion. By this I mean we see here going to there , and we measure our relativity as via a time graph......But what if another graph were being used...
Let's say it was like the ripples on a pond. And for ease of reference , we are only talking about man's existence. Say ( again for ease of reference) we use the biblical timeline.
Here's Adam.....one side of the pond.
Here's the last man (at the rapture) ....on the other side of the pond.

What Adam Does, is Mirrored on the other end via the outer ripple....ONLY....It must re-create balance...So Adam plus The last Man equal 1.

Might be difficult to understand as just this concept... But the thought process is to link the beginning and the end as partners ..created together, Becoming 1 or "whole".

I'll expand this view in an appropriate thread...But it can explain what you have a problem with...That a GOD can be governed by the rule of law and balance just like everything else.....We give these balances concepts like ...Good, bad, evil....But they are Variety and balance...Just like waves..
Cheers
Iseason

Hey all,
I think it might be helpful to look at the source of morality in this discussion. Wolverine has basically asked "how can a good God command such harshness?"
Well, you can't really ask this question if there is no such thing as goodnees to compare the harshness to.

If we're all just here by chance then ultimately there is no such thing as right or wrong. If the universe is an amoral place, why not make up crazy religions and try to rule the world, or worse, destroy it? It won't matter in a billion years.

But I think we can all see that there is such a thing as real morality. If there is such a thing as ultimate right and wrong, then it has to come from somewhere other than the amoral universe. There has to be a morality giver. There has to be a God. Not just a God who set things in motion, but one who cares about right and wrong.

The next question is, how do we know which God is the real moral law giver? If we judge morality based on our own feeling of right and wrong; some feel we should love our nieghbours, others feel we should eat them. There has to be outside help for us on the issue of the moral law, because there is something wrong with humanity: We can see there must be a moral law, yet we all choose to do what is clearly wrong at times even though we know it exists.

I suggest, wolverine, that you look at what the rest of the Bible says in judging the above passages you quoted. There just might be a paradigm there that makes them make sense as coming from a perfectly loving and perfectly just God. I believer there is, and that the Bible records that outside help coming from God.

If one spends a great amount of time living inside the brain and not with the body, how would one know such a life without a god? I know, that sounds jumbled. What I mean is, if we constantly analyze the situation, whether one is following a "bestowed" set of morals or not, and doesn't let themself just live- live to survive, help others survive, and thus, reproduce safely and effectively- then we will be wasting too much time in thought and not enough in action. Balance is important however. I love robasking..., how you mentioned the role of directorship of morals, whether we stumbled upon it accidentally, or whether we were given the blueprints to follow such thoughts. Who knows, maybe aliens created us from another planet and we're some kind of pet project of theirs.

Good point. If there was a God, would they be such a sick character as to want to watch a bunch of people go through so much pain and then finally learn to get along with each other after they've found out how to secretly annihilate one another? God- so loving and so fair- is a utopian mindset of people I believe. Was God therefore responsible for creation? Definitely not, I believe. All of these happenings right now are really nothing- that's in comparison to something else we've never seen. Since we haven't seen it, all of this, the earth, moon, stars, languages, organisms, etc. might very well might just be nothing.